Expanding Universe?

[halcyondream]

Salaam all,

The Qur'an says in Surah Dhariyat, Ch. 51, Verse No. 47, that:

'We have created the expanding universe.'

I have heard that the Arabic word 'Mohsiana' refers to 'vastness' as opposed to 'expanding'.

I'm no expert on Arabic, could anyone help me a little and tell me what it should be? :blink:

Thankies.

[Ansar Al-Haq]

Either way, if Allah says "wa inna lamusioon", and We are musioon,
if it comes from vast, Allah is saying we are making it vast, which is the same as expansion.

It is indeed expanding as scientist have observed from the red shift.

[halcyondream]

Thank you, Al-Haq :)

[mastermind1]

Asalam Aalaikum

It is true that recent Astronomical Observations has proved that our Universe is expanding at a constant acceleration. This was observed by a Scientists who was looking into the Sky through a TeleScope, what he noticed was that the distance between each planet and the distance between galaxies was increasing, this could only be possible if the Universe was expanding, just like a Baloon with spots on it, as the baloon expands when air is filled in it, the distance between the spots increases.
In the similar way as the Universe is expanding,the distance between the galaxies and planets is increasing.



Regards,

[Roswell]

Assalmao Alekum,
Just my humble opinion,
Qur'an often invites intellectuals to ponder what God has made out there and to get some inspiration to get a little idea how powerfull Allah would be.................
Verses like mentioned here about the facts of universe i.e expanding universe,we have to ponder what actually Allah wants us to.
1.Its the fact that universe was contracting before the great explosion Big-Bang,not expanding.
2.God has pointed(Big-Bang) in Qur'an this fact and put us into thoughtable stance that how came it possible that contracting objects are now expanding ?
Would like to define this expanding phenomena,

The apparent linearity of Hubble's Law implies that the universe is uniformly expanding. What does that actually mean?

For one thing, it means that no matter which galaxy we happen to be in, virtually all of the other galaxies are moving away from us (the exceptions are at the local level: gravitational attraction pulls neighboring galaxies, such as Andromeda and the Milky Way, closer together). In other words, it's not as though we here on earth are at the center of the universe and everything else is receding from us. The universe has no "edge" as such.

3. How it is possible that , during the expandation of different galaxies, mostly, galaxies are penetrated in different galaxies and interstingly not a single collision occurs among thier objects i.e planets.
4. The rate at which this universe is expanding, is much faster velocity that sometime it hits the velocity of light.But planets are stable!
5. Universe has no limit, so how much bigger the territory of Allah would be!

Regards,

[Ratatosk]

Salam,

Peace, Roswell™.

Thank you for your post.

Some of the points may have to be addressed. Your first point


1.Its the fact that universe was contracting before the great explosion Big-Bang,not expanding.

is, I believe, refering to the oscillatory universe models, with an endless cycle of expansion and contraction, followed by yet another rapid expansion (Big Bang), thus repeating this pattern throughout eternity. The latest observations have, however, almost inconclusively shown that our universe has an open geometry, ie it will not contract in a Big Crunch (sometimes refered to as the Gnab Gib). The final contraction would require the universe's mass to be above the critical density for the sum gravity to slow down the expansion. This seems not to be the case.


2.God has pointed(Big-Bang) in Qur'an this fact and put us into thoughtable stance that how came it possible that contracting objects are now expanding ?

See above.


3. How it is possible that , during the expandation of different galaxies, mostly, galaxies are penetrated in different galaxies and interstingly not a single collision occurs among thier objects i.e planets.

When Galaxies Collide (what a title for a poetry book, come to think of it!) it must be remembered that actual matter collision is extremely rare. The largest 'part' of any given galaxy is un-collision-prone dark matter. To make an example, the nearest star to Sol is Proxima Centauri, at some 4.3 light years distance. The cross section of typical Sol-like star is some 10^17 m^2. Implicitly this boils down to a collision probability of some 10^-15, ie one in a million billions. For planets, the probability is ridicilous. Actual matter collision is not the real culprit, though. The Bad Guy™ is gravity. Gravitational tidal waves can cause gas cloud crushes and solar systems to collapse, et cetera. What must be remembered though, is that these phenomena happen on a time scale so immensely slow (the order of magnitude is some 10^8 years, that's a hundred million years) that we have no real data based on actual observation. The observed collisions display such a diverse range of phenomena that nothing conclusive can be said.


4. The rate at which this universe is expanding, is much faster velocity that sometime it hits the velocity of light.But planets are stable!

The accelerating expansion that I believe you're refering to is a cosmological model predicting a finite universe. The observations are a tad controversial, though, so before they are ascertained, the theories are hypothetical. Btw, matter is not accelerated to the speed of light; matter at the speed of C becomes a singularity. However, an accelerating universe might theoretically end in something called the Big Rip. The Big Rip, more or less, has the galaxies scattering further and further apart, with the end result of these galaxies coming gravitationally unbound. Less than a year before the universe ends solar systems fall apart. Then, only a couple of seconds before the end of the universe occurs, atoms break down. Time ends. Exit mundi.

Planets are not stable.


5. Universe has no limit, so how much bigger the territory of Allah would be!

The universe has a limit, it's called the event horizon.


Allah's realm -- as it were -- is infinitely larger.


Regards,

[Halima]

Eventually, one day the universe will start to shrink and it will get smaller and smaller. That is predicted in about 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 years, this event will happen. As soon as the universe becomes smaller and smaller it will only be a cloud of dust.


Secondly, the only thing that is left over are rocks, and hydrogen, and different gases that form the cloud. See, every living thing on
on earth is made from Elemens. We are made from the different elements. There's hydrogen, nitrogen, and oxygen that are the planet's main elements.


Thirdly, these elements are extremely important to the earth's atmosphere. Regarding the universe, there is no gravity to hold us down, and the only thing that can potentially hit us are the rocks coming from left and right, that can potentially hit us. Eventually the universe will become a little cloud, and then it will rebuild again Also, it is proven that the universe is still expanding that is what scientists determined as of right now.

[Ratatosk]

Salam,

Peace, Halima. Errr..., no.

You can find some facts here (http://forums.understanding-islam.org/community/showpost.php?p=7133&postcount=6). [Smiley.]

Regarding the so called 'Big Rip', some issues can be made clearer by clicking here (http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/big_rip_030306.html).

Some snippets about The End Of Everything can be read here (http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/03/05/1078464631459.html).

Respectfully,

[Roswell]

Peace Ratatosk™,
Thanks for your science lessons,


is, I believe, refering to the oscillatory universe models, with an endless cycle of expansion and contraction, followed by yet another rapid expansion (Big Bang)................This seems not to be the case.,
All I was saying that universe was contracted into a Big Crunch(sphere of matter) or Gnab Gib.It's fascinating that where that Big crunch came from, either by an endless cycle of expansion and contraction or some supar natural force made it but, as you say, this theory is seemed to fail and on the contrary the team, presents Big-Rip theory,were considering how a sphere of matter collapses under its own weight to form a galaxy. In computer models, they tweaked with the dark energy factor and found that too much of it would actually prevent the sphere from collapsing. In extreme cases, the sphere exploded.
Now two questions, where that sphere came from ? and scientifically, the sphere can't be exploded itself , the team is not sure about self-explosion though!The first question can be compromised(researchable) if we exclude invlovemnet of super natural force, however the second one I believe can't be answerd, the only one theory has been presented ,it seems to have failed as Dark Engergy concept brought up as you mentioned and my second point was based upon my these knowledge.But before they present the dark energy as expanding universe, scientist need to have some explanation of early existance of matter either in sphere of matter or .......Interestingly, the dark energy theory hasnt come into full of its pace,


While scientists are increasingly convinced of its existence, precisely what this dark energy is remains unclear. New research is trickling in all the time, most recently a week ago from a group of astronomers using the Hubble telescope. "Right now, we're about twice as confident (as) before that Einstein's cosmological constant is real," says researcher Adam Riess of the Space Telescope Science Institute in Baltimore. "(But) we still have no clue what it is."




When Galaxies Collide (what a title for a poetry book, come to think of it!) it must be remembered that actual matter collision is extremely rare. The largest 'part' of any given galaxy is un-collision-prone dark matter. To make an example, the nearest star to Sol is Proxima Centauri, at some 4.3 light years distance. The cross section of typical Sol-like star is some 10^17 m^2. Implicitly this boils down to a collision probability of some 10^-15, ie one in a million billions. For planets, the probability is ridicilous. Actual matter collision is not the real culprit, though. The Bad Guy™ is gravity. Gravitational tidal waves can cause gas cloud crushes and solar systems to collapse, et cetera. What must be remembered though, is that these phenomena happen on a time scale so immensely slow (the order of magnitude is some 10^8 years, that's a hundred million years) that we have no real data based on actual observation. The observed collisions display such a diverse range of phenomena that nothing conclusive can be said.
I need to review it.Neverthless,the age of universe would elaborate it though.


The accelerating expansion that I believe you're refering to is a cosmological model predicting a finite universe. The observations are a tad controversial, though, so before they are ascertained, the theories are speculation. Btw, matter is not accelerated to the speed of light; matter at the speed of C becomes a singularity. However, an accelerating universe might theoretically end in something called the Big Rip. The Big Rip, more or less, has the galaxies scattering further and further apart, with the end result of these galaxies coming gravitationally unbound. Less than a year before the universe ends solar systems fall apart. Then, only a couple of seconds before the end of the universe occurs, atoms break down. Time ends. Exit mundi .


If Caldwell's team is right, cosmology would undergo a revolution. Sci-fi ideas like wormholes and time travel might suddenly enter the realm of hard science. All of this could sort itself out pretty soon, Caldwell believes. Observations over the next few years may actually show whether his phantom energy is possible

Even if the Big Rip is a big bust, there's no guarantee of a pleasant ending.


Choice is not ours.There is another theory similar to Big Rip, Big Chill,state, that the universe will expand forever.BTW galaxies recede at the speed of light


The universe has a limit, it's called the event horizon.
We can certainly rely on the Law of entrapy rather awaiting of those theories to be true.
Please accept my little rose http://cc.domaindlx.com/mskg2001/msn/roswell.gif

Peace out,

[Ansar Al-Haq]

Assalmu Alaykum,
Thank you Ratatosk for pointing out that the "contracting" is actually referring to the oscilatory model of the universe. Some people expand this model to even say that our universe was spawned by a black hole/experiment in an alien universe.

Personally, I disagree with the oscilatory model. Does it not contradict the second law of thermodynamics? Won't a big crunch man a decrease in entropy and an increase in order?

Wasalaam

[Ratatosk]

Salam,

Peace, Al-Haq.

Thank you for your post.

The SLoT applies primarily to heat dissipation, it is not an end-all-and-be-all rigid law that can always be applied to each and every instance in the observable universe. I know that, for instance, some creationists sloppily use SLoT simply as The Law Of Decay, using it as a weapon against evolution. The logic being that evolution (the issue they are refering to is actually abiogenesis..) is breaching SLoT by spontaneously causing order where no order previously existed. This is yet again a titanic mix-up of terms.

Regarding local 'entropy' situations, black holes create a concentration of this 'order', if you will. I believe this is the SLoT breach you are refering to. You are, naturally, correct in your assumption; the oscillatory model has been all but abandoned by the war scarred and seasoned science officers.

The Big Rip/Big Split cataclysmic cosmological models are relying on the yet-to-be-observed Dark Energy, a bizarre anti-gravitational force which increases(!) over time. It is a very strange force, indeed. Acting more or less as a form of reverse gravity pull, ultimately tearing asunder the very fabric of matter, it seems to fit current observations.


BTW, thank you ever so much, dear Roswell™, for your rose. Rest assured, it was appreciated. Cheers.

Regards,

[Ansar Al-Haq]

Assalamu Alaykum,
Thank you for your post, Ratatosk, as I found it very informative.

What is the relationship between Dark matter and Dark energy? Is Dark energy solely an anti-gravitational force or does it counteract other basic forces in the universe as well?

wasalaam

[Vajradhara]

regarding dark energy and matter:


LOS ANGELES (AP) - The mysterious "dark energy" that is pushing apart the universe appears to be the constant force that Albert Einstein once predicted, according to measurements made by the Hubble Space Telescope.

NASA scientists announced their findings Friday, and details are to appear in an upcoming issue of Astrophysical Journal. The force is an unknown form of energy that behaves in an opposite manner from the pull of gravity.

Dark energy causes the galaxies within the universe to move apart from one another at ever-increasing speeds. Einstein called the force the "cosmological constant." He theorized its existence to balance the universe against normal gravity and keep it from collapsing on itself. Einstein ultimately dismissed the theory as his greatest blunder, but subsequent observations of supernovas, or distant stars that exploded long ago, gave it credence.

Scientists now know dark energy causes the universe to expand and accelerate. It makes up an estimated 70 percent of the universe. What was unclear is whether dark energy is stable. If it grows stronger with time, the universe could end with galaxies, stars, planets and, ultimately, atoms coming unglued in a violent expansion that theorists call the "big rip." In the alternative, dark energy could fade away to the point where it flipped in force, pulling the universe back together in what's called the "big crunch."

The latest Hubble observations announced Friday suggest dark energy is unwavering, just as Einstein predicted. "Right now, we're about twice as confident than before that Einstein's cosmological constant is real, or at least dark energy does not appear to be changing fast enough - if at all - to cause an end to the universe anytime soon," said Adam Riess, of the Space Telescope Science Institute in Baltimore, which looks at data sent from the Hubble.

Even if Einstein was wrong, dark energy won't spell an end to the universe for at least another 30 billion years, scientists said. The latest results come from the measurements of multiple supernovas that exploded when the universe was half its present age of nearly 14 billion years. The apparent brightness of a certain type of supernova allows scientists to gauge the expansion rate of the universe at different times in the past. That in turn allows them to measure any change in the strength of the force exerted by dark energy. Further research is needed to prove dark energy is indeed a constant force, scientists said.

However, NASA's decision to no longer repair Hubble means the work will be interrupted until a replacement can be built and launched. --- On the Net: http://www.hubblesite.org/ (http://www.hubblesite.org/)

[Warbird]

ok i know this is off topic but this is some really scary stuff. A while back i was really into astrology i wanted to learn about stars and galxies and the whole universe it was of great intreast to me till i started learning about "Black Holes" it sounds as bad as it really is. Its a very small fraction of what ever star collapses but is 10x more dence and powerfull... its gravitional pull is so powerfull that not even light the fastest thing can escape it. And their are so many out them out their its so hard to find them because since its black it camafloges with space but u can see it when its eating another planet. i read a book saying that by the time a black hole is eating jupiter the gravitional pull is so strong that earth will be completly destroyed and to make things worse ppl think that theirs a mega black hole in the center of ever galaxy. i wonder if this is like one of the limits that allah has putten out. like he has given us our life on this beautiful planet and if we go too far away from it u will get killed. if u guys are into things like space and universe i recommend you look into black holes its very amazing to learn about.

[hasan]

Thought sharing..A rip to accomodate the big crunch..push and pull forces used when scrolling..an idea repeatedly entertained....

[Ansar Al-Haq]

Yes, Blackholes are amazing, subhannallah.

There is a giant black hole at the center of M-15, I believe.

[thanh]

i read a book saying that by the time a black hole is eating jupiter the gravitional pull is so strong that earth will be completly destroyed and to make things worse ppl think that theirs a mega black hole in the center of ever galaxy. i wonder if this is like one of the limits that allah has putten out. like he has given us our life on this beautiful planet and if we go too far away from it u will get killed.Fortunately, the nearest known black hole candidate is about 1600 light years (http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/astronomy/v4641_microquasar_000114.html) away. You would have to go really far away to be killed by a black hole.

[Yahya Sulaiman]

One of the two or three most respected English translation/interpretations of the Koran is A.J. Arberry's The Koran Interpreted, which renders the verse in question, "And heaven--We built it with might, and We extend it wide." Note the present tense of the verb.

[Ansar Al-Haq]

yes, musioon

[Yahya Sulaiman]

There are an awful lot of Arabic terms for a year-old Muslim like me to keep up with. What is a musioon?

[Ansar Al-Haq]

oh, that is the actual arabic verse used in the ayat, which is the verb that means making vast. Allah says, "And we are (doing to it) musioon". I think it is mentioned near the beginning of this thread. Musioon is the word that means expanding.

[Warbird]

ok do you guys know the story of the tower of babalon... like how they were creating a tower high enough to reach God and all of a sudden he just changed everyones language so nobody could understand eachother and started fighting each other. the fact they they were trying to reach god was a sin this is something i dont understand... isnt it good too see people trying to reach God... and then someone told me that God was angry because he has given us such a beautiful world and the fact that we wanted to leave it to be in God's world got him angry... So i wonder is studying other planets, stars, galaxies, etc wrong?... i love to study space... I feel its all so beautiful how some of the planets look and the fact that they also may be life on another planet is remarkable. but still is it wrong to want to see other planets and not so much the one given to us to live on?

[Ansar Al-Haq]

Peace warbird and good question.

and then someone told me that God was angry because he has given us such a beautiful world and the fact that we wanted to leave it to be in God's world got him angry
I disagree with this explanation given to you. But I will give you a similar (or perhaps the same) story found in the Qur'an.

Suratul Qasas:
36. But when Moses came unto them with Our clear tokens, they said: This is naught but invented magic. We never heard of this among our fathers of old.
37. And Moses said: My Lord is best aware of him who bringeth guidance from His presence, and whose will be the sequel of the Home (of bliss). Lo! wrong doers will not be successful.
38. And Pharaoh said: O chiefs! I know not that ye have a god other than me, so kindle for me (a fire) , O Haman, to bake the mud; and set up for me a lofty tower in order that I may survey the god of Moses; and lo! I deem him of the liars.
39. And he and his hosts were haughty in the land without right, and deemed that they would never be brought back to Us.
40. Therefor We seized him and his hosts, and abandoned them unto the sea. Behold the nature of the consequence for evil doers!

Pharaoh, whom we now know to be Ramses due to archaeological evidence, was a tyrant. He enslaved the tribes of Banu Isra'il and made the egyptians preside over them. He killed half their sons. He declared himself to be god, and forced his subjects to worship him.

God sent Moses with signs to Pharaoh Ramses, to convince him of the truth and to stop his tyranny and arrogance. Many of Pharaoh's subjects believed in God and submitted to the truth, and Pharaoh tortured them for it.

In his rage that people were stopping to worship him, he commanded his minister Haman to build him a tower so that he could ascend and challenge God.

Also in Suratul-Ghafir:
35. Those who wrangle concerning the revelations of Allah without any warrant that hath come unto them, it is greatly hateful in the sight of Allah and in the sight of those who believe. Thus doth Allah print on every arrogant, disdainful heart.
36. And Pharaoh said: O Haman! Build for me a tower that haply I may reach the roads,
37. The roads of the heavens, and may look upon the God of Moses, though verily I think him a liar. Thus was the evil that he did made fair seeming unto Pharaoh, and he was debarred from the (right) way. The plot of Pharaoh ended but in ruin.

I hope I have clarified. But since this topic is not very related to the thread, to draw a connection to science I wanted to post some relevant archaeological findings.


"HAMAN" AND ANCIENT EGYPT MONUMENTS






The name "Haman" was not known until the decoding of Egyptian hieroglyphics in the 19th century. When the hieroglyphics were decoded, it was understood that Haman was a close helper of the Pharaoh and was "the head of the stone quarries." (Above are shown ancient Egyptian construction workers). The most important point here is that Haman is mentioned in the Qur'an as the person who directed construction work under the command of the Pharaoh. This means that information that could not have been known by anybody else at that time was given in the Qur'an, a point most worthy of note.



The Qur'an relates the life of the Prophet Musa (as) with great clarity. As it tells of the conflict with the Pharaoh and his dealings with the Children of Israel, the Qur'an reveals a wealth of information about ancient Egypt. The significance of many of these historical points have only recently come to the attention of the learned people of the world. If one considers these points with reason, it quickly becomes clear that the Qur'an, and the fountain of information contained within it, has been revealed by the All-Wise Allah for it correlates directly with all major scientific, historic and archaeological finds in recent times.


One such example of this wisdom can be found in the Qur'anic references to Haman: a character whose name is mentioned in the Qur'an, along with the Pharaoh. He is mentioned in six different places in the Qur'an, in which it informs us that he was one of Pharaoh's closest allies.


Surprisingly, the name "Haman" is never mentioned in those sections of the Torah pertaining to the life of the Prophet Musa (as). However, the mention of Haman can be found in the last chapters of the Old Testament as the helper of a Babylonian king who inflicted many cruelties on the Israelites approximately 1,100 years after the Prophet Musa (as).The Qur'an, far more in tune with recent archaeological discoveries, does indeed contain the word "Haman" in reference to the life of the Prophet Musa (as).


The criticisms thrown at the book of Islam by some non-Muslims have disappeared by the wayside as an Egyptian hieroglyphic script had been deciphered, approximately 200 years ago, and the name "Haman" discovered in the ancient scripts. Until the 18th century, the writings and inscriptions of ancient Egypt could not be understood. The language of ancient Egypt was made up of symbols rather than words: hieroglyphics. These pictures, which tell stories and keep records of important events in the same way that modern words do, was usually engraved on rock or stone and many examples survived through the ages. With the spread of Christianity and other cultural influences in the 2nd and 3rd centuries, Egypt forsook its ancient beliefs along with the hieroglyphic writing which was synonymous with that now defunct belief system. The last known example of the use of hieroglyphic writing was an inscription dated 394. The language of pictures and symbols was forgotten, leaving nobody who could read and understand it. Naturally, this made historical and archaeological study virtually impossible. This situation remained-until just over two centuries ago.


In 1799, much to the delight of historians and other learned people, the mystery of ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics was solved by the discovery of a tablet called the "Rosetta Stone." This amazing find dated back to 196 B.C. The importance of this inscription was that it was written in three different forms of writing: hieroglyphics, demotic (a simplified form of ancient Egyptian hieratic writing) and Greek. With the help of the Greek script, the ancient Egyptian writings were decoded. The translation of the inscription was completed by a Frenchman named Jean-Françoise Champollion. Hence, a forgotten language and the events related in it were brought to light. In this way, a great deal of knowledge about the civilization, religion and social life of ancient Egypt became available to mankind and this opened the way to greater knowledge about this important era in human history.


Through the decoding of hieroglyph, an important piece of knowledge was revealed: The name "Haman" was indeed mentioned in Egyptian inscriptions. This name was referred to in a monument in the Hof Museum in Vienna. This same inscription also indicated the close relationship between Haman and the Pharaoh.200


In the dictionary of People in the New Kingdom, that was prepared based on the entire collection of inscriptions, Haman is said to be "the head of stone quarry workers."201


The result revealed a very important truth: Unlike the false assertion of the opponents of the Qur'an, Haman was a person who lived in Egypt at the time of the Prophet Musa (as). He had been close to the Pharaoh and had been involved in construction work, just as imparted in the Qur'an.



Pharaoh said, "Council, I do not know of any other god for you apart from Me. Haman, kindle a fire for me over the clay and build me a lofty tower so that perhaps I may be able to climb up to Musa's god! I consider him a blatant liar." (Qur'an, 28:38)



The verse in the Qur'an describing the event where the Pharaoh asked Haman to build a tower is in perfect agreement with this archaeological finding. Through this brilliant discovery, the irrational claims of the opponents of the Qur'an were demonstrated to be false and intellectually worthless.


In a miraculous way, the Qur'an conveys to us historical information that could not have been possessed or understood at the time of the Prophet (saas). Hieroglyphics could not be deciphered until the late 1700s so the information could not have been ascertained from Egyptian sources. When the name "Haman" was discovered in the ancient scripts, it was further proof of the infallibility of Allah's Word.

That was from Harun Yahya's book on miracles in the Qur'an.

Salaam